Did you always see yourself working for the civil service? If not, what did you want to do?
No – like a lot of us, I didn’t set out to become a civil servant, but I’m very glad I found my way here. I worked as a typist and secretary all the way through my degree and got experience in a range of different organisations. That’s what introduced me to the public sector as somewhere I could contribute to something that might make a difference to people. A helpful careers adviser suggested I have a look at the Houses of Parliament after I graduated, so I gave it a go and managed to land a job as an assistant clerk in the House of Commons; it was a brilliant experience and the start of 28 years in and around the public sector since then.
What drew you to this role?
I love the civil service and public sector; I’m proud to be part of it and I want us all to succeed and make a difference together. At our best, we can be brilliant, but I know from my own experience that it’s often much harder than it should be to work together, make things better and get important and complex things done. So the chance to lead the work to make it easier to do that is really exciting to me.
Has anything surprised you so far?
I wouldn’t say surprised, but I’m massively impressed by the huge amount of work that’s already being done across departments to transform the way things work, our policies and services. When you’re working in a department, you don’t have a detailed or comprehensive view of what others are doing across government and it can be hard to find people who have already solved the problem you’re facing. One of the things I’d like to do is make it easier to share these sorts of things much more actively across our teams and organisations so we can more rapidly learn, scale and apply great ideas together.
What are the biggest priorities you’re going to be working on in the coming months?
It’s all about enabling better and faster delivery across the whole system so we can collectively deliver the Plan for Change as part of a productive and agile state. That requires a combination of working to improve the way the overall system works, and working with departments to unblock and progress the important things that need to happen now. There’s a lot of work happening on both of those fronts, but my two biggest areas of focus right now are: 1. helping to improve the operating environment and the way we make decisions across departments, Cabinet Office, HM Treasury, DSIT and the functions to make it easier for people to work together, try out different ideas, go faster and make things better; and 2. making it easier for leaders and teams to connect and learn from each other across their different organisations, including through our programme of test, learn and grow pilots.
“You can’t possibly achieve everything you’d like everywhere, for everyone, all at once; you have to choose where to focus your effort”
You took a “test-and-learn” approach in your last role at Defra. What were the benefits of that? And how has that shaped your approach to this role?
When you’re trying to bring about significant change in any complex system, it’s impossible to know up front exactly what’s going to work, how the various risks are going to pan out or how the context is going to change. Test-and-learn approaches are about recognising these uncertainties and building in ways to learn and iterate along the way, rather than setting too many things in stone too early.
It can be hard to do this well and I’ve certainly learned a lot from my experiences in previous roles and organisations. There are two particular lessons I’d highlight. Firstly, I think we have to learn to focus much more on the outcome and how things are actually working for the users, rather than becoming too fixated on a specific solution. Secondly, I think a lot of the challenges in policy and delivery can be traced back to implicit, untested assumptions that turn out not to be quite right, so I think it’s really important to be explicit about what assumptions are being made and build in ways of testing and evolving them as we go.
In 2023, you told CSW your Defra role required “the serenity to accept the things you cannot change, courage to change the things you can, and the wisdom to know the difference”. Does that apply to this role too?
Yes, definitely – I think anyone trying to lead and enable any kind of complex change would do well to recite the serenity prayer now and again! You can’t possibly achieve everything you’d like everywhere, for everyone, all at once; you have to choose how and where to focus your effort. So it’s all about trying to be deliberate, careful and ideally wise about those choices so you can have the best chance of making progress.
What else do you need to do your job well?
I think the biggest thing I need is to listen, engage and show curiosity and respect for all the organisations and people we’re working with, so we can work through all the changes we need to make positively and productively together. That’s the only way we’re going to be able to understand what really needs to change and the best way to go about it.
You spent four years at GDS, including as programme director of the flagship Verify identity assurance scheme. What do you think are the best changes to government to have come out of that digital transformation work?
A lot of the work we all did then laid the foundations for what followed, and I’m really proud and grateful to have been part of it. It was an exciting, energising time to work on digital in government, I absolutely loved the people and teams I got to work with and I learned a huge amount very quickly.
I think the biggest shift was the work across GDS and departments to build digital teams, capabilities and ways of working after a long period where outsourcing had become the norm and digital skills had become very scarce. It’s amazing how far the profession has come and how much has been achieved so far in what feels like a very short period since then, and I can’t wait to see how things develop with the new digital centre, One Login and the wider digital and AI roadmap.
In 2016, while at GDS, writing for CSW, you asked what it would mean if boldness were an explicit civil service value. Is that still an important value for you?
Absolutely, we’re all at our best and can do incredible things when we’re prepared and able to be bold. I’m still on the same mission to help everyone feel safe, free and encouraged to be bold in facing up to the real issues and challenges in front of them.
Back then, you wrote: “I know I am at my best when I can feel the weird whoosh of terror and relief that comes from real, heartfelt boldness.” Can you tell us about a time you’ve felt that as a civil servant?
Yes, I felt it when I was applying for this role, as I think many people do when they’re applying for a big job they really want!
You’ve also been involved in One Team Gov – a movement that aimed to improve government by getting departments and professions to work more effectively together. How will you be bringing the spirit of One Team Gov to this role?
Fully – a lot of the work we’re doing is about making it much easier to bring different disciplines, teams and organisations together to solve problems and make things better. We’re also going to be embodying the collaborative, open and positive spirit of One Team Gov in the work we do. We’re looking to work openly and collaboratively with civil service and public sector colleagues and experts and practitioners from wider communities so we can design, test and deliver changes together and make sure we tackle the real root issues and make things work better for everyone.
What’s the best piece of advice you’ve been given as a civil servant?
Being a leader isn’t about becoming great at everything, it’s about working out what your unique style and strengths are and how to bring that to the table in a useful way as part of a wider team.
"Part of leadership is working out how you’re going to look after your resilience and your team’s resilience when things are hard"
What’s been the hardest day of your civil service career?
I’m generally pretty positive and enjoy the challenge of finding the opportunities in any given situation, however difficult, but it’s always hard when things don’t work out how you’d hoped in whatever way. I think part of leadership is working out how you’re going to look after your resilience and your team’s resilience when things are hard. For me, that’s about keeping focused on making things better day by day in whatever way you can, and doing the best you can to learn and improve all the time.
…and the most Yes, Minister/Thick of It moment of your career?
I couldn’t possibly comment.
What achievement are you proudest of?
I don’t think there’s a single thing I’d pick out. I’m really proud to be part of the public sector, working with people whose jobs are all about making things better for the public in one way or another. I love feeling part of a shared community and endeavour in that way.
You describe yourself as an “allotmenteer, reader, over-enthusiast”. What are you currently growing, reading, and over-enthusing about?
I’ve recently moved house from London to Staffordshire so I’m starting all over again with the growing, having left the allotment I looked after and loved in London for 18 years. So far I’ve got some tomatoes and cucumbers on the go in my greenhouse and I’ve got the all-important compost bins up and running. I’m very excited about that and looking forward to sowing seeds for the autumn and winter. Aside from that, I’m currently spending a lot of time over-enthusing about the sky here in Staffordshire, which I love and which is about ten times bigger than the sky in south London, I reckon (or at least it feels that way!) I’ve just read Abundance by Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson, which is a fascinating read if you’re interested in how to make the public sector work better. I’m currently reading Compost by Charles Dowding: one of my favourite writers on veg growing, writing about one of my favourite subjects, so I can’t really go wrong with that!
This interview first appeared in the autumn 2025 issue of Civil Service World, which you can read online here